[Synapse elist] short response

Sun Jun 29 05:02:41 CST 2008

Hi Gordana,
yes by artificial I did mean human-made, and from the posts that have followed people seem to separate the origins of the artificial thing from the things that the artificial thing creates. Leonel's robot drawings for example..  
What I am referring to is that things do not emerge in isolation, so to me I cannot look at the end product without seeing all the steps that have led to the end product.

so to take the example of Leonel's robot: he made the robot, he decided the mechanism, he probably tweaked it until he was happy with the result, he chose the colours of the inks. This to me is an artificial thing emerging from human intervention. (Leonel jump in at anytime)

An I would say the same thing about Harold Cohen's work AARON.

Erika Lincoln
Electronic Media Artist
Winnipeg/Manitoba/Canada
http://www.lincolnlab.net

--- On Sat, 6/21/08, Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se> wrote:

> From: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se>
> Subject: RE: [Synapse elist] short response
> To: "fur_princess at yahoo.ca" <fur_princess at yahoo.ca>
> Received: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 11:59 AM
> Hello Erika,
> 
> Your question was if an artificial thing can emerge without
> human intervention,
> and I believed that by "artificial" you refer to
> human-made.
> Now I am not so sure if I understand the question.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Gordana
> 
> ________________________________________
> From: Erika Lincoln [fur_princess at yahoo.ca]
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 5:16 PM
> To: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
> Subject: RE: [Synapse elist] short response
> 
> HI Gordana,
> reading for the weekend, thanks.
> 
> I have had two responses from my statement about can an
> artificial thing emerge without human intervention, and I
> do see how my statement presupposes that the artificial
> thing is already in existence. Hence Gordana's and
> Leonel's answers are "yes".
> 
> more later when I figure my thoughts.
> 
> Erika Lincoln
> Electronic Media Artist
> Winnipeg/Manitoba/Canada
> http://www.lincolnlab.net
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
> <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se> wrote:
> 
> > From: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
> <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se>
> > Subject: RE: [Synapse elist] short response
> > To: "fur_princess at yahoo.ca"
> <fur_princess at yahoo.ca>, "Synapse elist"
> <elist at synapse.net.au>
> > Received: Friday, June 20, 2008, 2:16 AM
> > Hi Erika,
> >
> > > Can an artificial thing emerge without human
> > intervention????
> >
> > Why not?
> > We are surrounded by an ever-changing universe in
> which
> > new particles pop up from the vacuum and disappear all
> the
> > time.
> > New stars are born, and old ones die. Etc.
> > Change is how things are. (Panta rei! as Heraclitus
> said)
> >
> > Now if you ask about creative programs or machines,
> they
> > also exist,
> > and even more adaptive, intelligent machines are being
> > developed.
> >
> > In principle, the recipe I believe is something like:
> > adaptive autonomous system + changing universe +
> selection
> > mechanism --> new systems/ideas/rules *
> > - actually pretty general, never mind wet or dry.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Gordana
> > http://www.idt.mdh.se/personal/gdc/
> >
> > PS
> > * I proposed such mechanism in:
> > Where do New Ideas Come From? How do They Emerge?
> > Epistemology as Computation (Information Processing)
> > Chapter for a book celebrating the work of Gregory
> Chaitin,
> > Randomness & Complexity, from Leibniz to Chaitin,
> > C. Calude ed., World Scientific, Singapore, 2007
> >
> > see:
> http://www.idt.mdh.se/personal/gdc/work/NewIdeas.pdf
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: elist-bounces at synapse.net.au
> > [elist-bounces at synapse.net.au] On Behalf Of Erika
> Lincoln
> > [fur_princess at yahoo.ca]
> > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 2:12 AM
> > To: Synapse elist
> > Subject: Re: [Synapse elist] short response
> >
> > Hi Gordana,
> >
> > Quote
> > > Erika says:
> > > EL: “But how can one conceive of the new when
> all
> > one
> > > knows is what lies before them........???”
> > > GDC: How new forms arise evolutionary in the
> > interaction
> > > between an organism and the world? Combining
> existing
> > > elements (of which only some survive).
> > end quote
> >
> > from your quote I think you are talking about.....how
> do I
> > say...organisms in a natural state, or biology, or wet
> > life, (so many different terms). It seems to be the
> way
> > biologists talk about the emergence of new things. My
> > question is can you transfer this idea to AI when to
> my
> > mind the things (for the lack of a better word) do not
> > emerge on their own, or maybe they do? ahgrh hard to
> wrap
> > my head around,,,,,can an artificial thing emerge
> without
> > human intervention????
> >
> > Erika
> >
> >
> >
> > Erika Lincoln
> > Electronic Media Artist
> > Winnipeg/Manitoba/Canada
> > http://www.lincolnlab.net
> >
> >
> > --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
> > <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
> > <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se>
> > > Subject: Re: [Synapse elist] short response
> > > To: "Synapse elist"
> > <elist at synapse.net.au>
> > > Received: Saturday, June 14, 2008, 6:55 AM
> > > Hello list!
> > >
> > > Thank you for so many good ideas and references.
> I am
> > > enjoying the discussion very much, and I found
> many
> > good
> > > thoughts, so this subject will keep me busy for a
> > while!
> > > Let me try to contribute to questions I believe I
> can
> > offer
> > > a comment on.
> > >
> > > Greg says:
> > > GH: “Then we notice that whenever we come close
> to
> > the
> > > sponge we remember our childhoods. And this is
> the
> > case for
> > > 70% of the people who come near it. Is the sponge
> > > influencing our thoughts? If so, is that an
> indication
> > of
> > > agency on the part of the sponge? or is it just a
> > visual
> > > trigger of our memories?”
> > >
> > > GDC: This question can be answered from
> > “Epistemology
> > > Naturalized: The Info-Computationalist
> Approach”
> > > framework.
> > > Not only sponges, but hills, skies and actually
> nearly
> > > everything may awake memories and feelings. Shall
> we
> > think
> > > skies as alive?  Extrapolating, we come to the
> > interesting
> > > question of what is life? In a limit case of very
> > simple
> > > beings like viruses? Biologists could help, but
> maybe
> > one
> > > can say even without knowing a definition of life
> that
> > > cognition is a result of interaction with the
> world
> > (which
> > > of course includes humans, animals and the rest).
> We
> > > interact with inanimate objects and our
> interaction
> > with
> > > those changes us (we have become “homo faber”
> > because
> > > of using tools, stone in the beginning.)
> > >
> > > GH: “If this is so then the division between AI
> and
> > human
> > > intelligence or agency or experience is just one
> of
> > degree
> > > rather than kind.”
> > > GDC: I agree. Add also that people may get
> cognitive
> > > enhancements in the future which is even more
> blurring
> > the
> > > difference between natural and artificial
> > > life/intelligence.
> > >
> > > Erika says:
> > > EL: “But how can one conceive of the new when
> all
> > one
> > > knows is what lies before them........???”
> > > GDC: How new forms arise evolutionary in the
> > interaction
> > > between an organism and the world? Combining
> existing
> > > elements (of which only some survive).
> > >
> > > W Shawn Gray says:
> > > WSG: (on "free will" as an illusion)
> > > ”In that context the 31 May 2008 issue of New
> > Scientist
> > > has a great article. "Grand Theory of the
> > Brain"
> > > about it all being a massive Bayesian probability
> > machine
> > > in constant comparison of ones expectation with
> > realities
> > > sensory feedback..”
> > > GDC: This is a view about non-existence of free
> will
> > that
> > > very often comes up. Is sweetness only an
> illusion
> > when we
> > > know that sugar molecule itself is not sweet at
> all?
> > > A good argument for info-computationalist
> approach is
> > given
> > > by Douglas Hofstadter in Victim of the brain (see
> > > http://www.mathrix.org/liquid/ for wealth of
> extremely
> > > interesting information). Somewhere in the movie
> > Hofstadter
> > > says that we actually all are made of atoms, a
> > discovery
> > > which made him re-think his views on what human
> is.
> > > Does that make us less real? No homunculi are
> needed
> > in a
> > > complex world where qualitatively new behaviors
> emerge
> > on
> > > different levels of organization.
> > > Knowing that on certain basic level human is just
> a
> > heap of
> > > specifically (extremely complexly) arranged atoms
> does
> > not
> > > mean we are less worth. We are not only atoms, we
> are
> > > complex machines made of simple elements and
> those
> > elements
> > > follow physical laws as we all know. Again I
> believe
> > that my
> > > virtual machine metaphor might be helpful here.
> > > We can construct a virtual machine operating on
> some
> > basic
> > > machine, and that hierarchy of meta-machines can
> > consist of
> > > several layers. Each layer is its own world.
> Virtual
> > unix
> > > running on windows is a unix anyway. Our
> thoughts,
> > memories
> > > and feelings are running on some “physical
> operating
> > > system”, but they are quite different from
> their
> > physical
> > > basis.
> > >
> > > Reva says:
> > > RS: "I have been interested in the number of
> > responses
> > > that felt the issues could be answered by
> equating
> > > cognition, perception, reasoning, speech, memory,
> > choice
> > > etc. with information or what Erika called a
> > > "computational world view".  I guess
> what I
> > am
> > > saying late at night is, in a computational info
> model
> > for
> > > life and intelligence such as Gordana talked
> about,
> > where
> > > is there room for experience, personality and the
> > > intentionality that Daniel mentioned."
> > > GDC: I guess I answered that one in my comment
> about
> > the
> > > sweetness and the sugar molecule. Feynman
> famously
> > said:
> > > “There is plenty of room at the bottom” and
> our
> > > experiences with virtual worlds (artistic
> imagery,
> > > simulations, emulations, ..) seem to clearly show
> that
> > > there is even plenty of room on the top (of
> cognitive
> > > hierarchies)!
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> Gordana_______________________________________________
> > > elist mailing list
> > > elist at synapse.net.au
> > >
> http://lists.synapse.net.au/mailman/listinfo/elist
> >
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________________________
> > Connect with friends from any web browser - no
> download
> > required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the
> Web
> > BETA at
> http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > elist mailing list
> > elist at synapse.net.au
> > http://lists.synapse.net.au/mailman/listinfo/elist
> 
> 
>      
> __________________________________________________________________
> Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/gift/

      __________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.